Dylan Ris (00:01.25)
Welcome to Personality Crisis. I am Dylan Ris, your host for this episode. And we are very honored to be joined today by a British author, journalist. you might know his work from The New Statesman or one of his best selling books. Let's welcome Jonn Elledge to the podcast. John, thank you for being here.

Jonn (00:19.885)
Thank you for inviting me. I i yeah, I love I love telling people about stuff. That's kind of what I enjoy doing with my time. So it's always nice to have an excuse to do it professionally.

Dylan Ris (00:29.342)
Well well we we we love we love learning and we love you know chiseling away at our vast ignorance. So yeah, you can perhaps help a little as our resident expert in the politics of the United Kingdom.

Jonn (00:45.219)
Well, I the the advantage from my point of view is like 'cause 'cause you're American, then like I can say any old shit and you will probably imagine it's true. So yeah, I don't I don't need to be informed or anything. I'm I'm just

Dylan Ris (00:49.571)
Yeah.

W probably w we will believe it exactly.

Like I just learned that that Churchill is no longer prime minister and someone just took over for him, right?

Jonn (01:04.311)
What? Jesus Christ I've got to go write a column. Okay, so what what are we what are we talking what are we talking about here?

Dylan Ris (01:09.518)
Yes. it's true. We we we we may know nothing about your country, but we're we're determined to learn. I do know that you have a new prime minister, Andy Burnham, of the Labor Party. it does seem that the the the phrase labor prime minister has been very rare in the twenty first century, but

Jonn (01:25.1)
We do.

Dylan Ris (01:38.86)
Here he is, trying to pick up where Keir Starmer left off, or what what what should we know about Andy Burnham and UK labor in twenty twenty six?

Jonn (01:48.076)
you you say it's been rare in the twenty first century. It's been rare ever. I think I was just counting in my head, I think Andy Burnham is the eighth Labour Prime Minister, four of whom have been in the twenty first century. So, like this is very much a thing you sort of like you grow up, you learn about politics, you sort of imagine that it's gonna be about half and half, and that's not.

Dylan Ris (01:58.51)
Mm.

Jonn (02:12.223)
historically been true. generally speaking, I think in the 20th century the Conservatives, the Tories are in power for about two thirds of the time. But yeah, so Andy Burnham is it's it it's not unusual. In fact these days it's incredibly usual to change prime ministers without an election midterm. It's a parliamentary system. This is this is entirely legitimate and allowed. What is unusual about Andy Burnham is that

At the start of this year, in fact, I think at the start of May, he was not even in Parliament. he was he was a minister in the last Labour government in the until 2010. he was in the he was the shadow minister in opposition for a while, but then he went off to be mayor of of Greater Manchester, which he's done pretty successfully. Like mayors are a relatively recent addition to the British political landscape. They're not very powerful.

compared to mayors in most country most countries. But Andy Burnham's seen as having done a pretty good job. He was very popular up there. He did better than the Labour Party polling suggested he should in three different elections. He'd not really been hiding the fact that he wanted to be Prime Minister. he'd been quite transparent about that. And at the start of the you know going into this year, everyone on the British left kind of knew that Keir Starmer had

This is a technical term, fucked it, and was was doing incredibly badly and was on course to lose the next election quite badly, despite having the enormous majority in parliament. but of the three leading candidates, there was Angela Rayner, who was formerly pri deputy prime minister, but there was some a bit of a scandal around some of her tax affairs, which is I don't think it was entirely fair, but nonetheless it's the kind of thing that tends to stick around.

Dylan Ris (03:41.467)
Ha ha

Jonn (04:07.309)
There was the health secretary, Wes Streeting, whose problem was he was from the right of the party. he would not have been very popular with the membership that was required to actually pick the leader. and also like he his his polling wasn't brilliant, but he was very ambitious, quite competent, he clearly wanted it. And the third guy was Andy Burnham, everyone knew he wanted it as well. And it was you know, everyone was saying, Well, it can't be Angela because of her tax affairs, it can't be Wes because everyone hates him.

And it can't be Andy because he's not actually in Parliament. And there's no route to him becoming an MP. And then he managed to become an MP. So here we are. and it's all it all happened in the logjam when it broke, all ch it all happened incredibly quickly. Like as recently as I think maybe two months ago, it looked like we were we were stuck and nothing was going to change. and Burnham found a way back to parliament. Another another MP from the right of the party, Josh Simons, stood down to

Dylan Ris (04:44.617)
Mm-hmm.

Jonn (05:06.701)
To clear a path for him. the governing body of the Labour Party said it would not block him running this time as it did in the previous election. And then he won that seat very, very convincingly, like against the main opposition there were Nigel Farage's Reform Party. and it was Makerfield was quite high on reform's list of target seats. It was like tenth or something. So it was a seat they absolutely would expect to carry in the general election.

and Burnham absolutely smashed it. He outperformed expectations by about twenty points. which so even though he's not been elected by the country, that does feel like a bit of a mandate. And when that happened and he said he was going to run for the leadership, Keir Starmer said, Okay, game's up. I resign. and that's the last two months.

Dylan Ris (05:50.669)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Ris (05:54.936)
So Burnham in in his outward personality and his sort of charisma seems a departure from the other labor leaders we've spoken of in you know in the twenty first century that you've alluded to the the Gordon Browns, the Jeremy Corbyn's, the Keir Starmers. Burnham does seem different. am I am I right that he's different or is that is that just outwardly so?

Jonn (06:20.265)
I mean they're all within a a a range. I think like something that Andy Burnham has that most Labour leaders historically have not. And the only exception I can think of leaping to mind is actually Tony Blair, who he's not similar to in many ways, but he accudes optimism. he he talks, you know, he he he he came in and like literally before he entered Downing Street in his speech on the steps outside.

his first policy announcement was like, right, first thing we're gonna end rough sleeping. We're gonna end visible homelessness. Now he may or may not be able to do that. It's a complicated issue. He didn't actually manage to do that as mayor of Greater Manchester, though he did put quite a dent in it. But actually just saying like, I'm gonna use the power of government to make the world better is something that I think people on the left in this country have have been a bit frightened to do. I mean Keir Starmer was terrible at this.

His b first big speech as Prime Minister. Well, firstly, he waited nearly two months before giving the set piece speech, which is an incredible thing to to do. But also then it was like, you know, well, it's gonna get better, but it's it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Everything is awful. we're gonna have a really tough autumn. anyway, good luck, everyone. And it's just like this is not what anyone wants. Like, optimism wins votes.

Like it's the kind of the Ronald Reagan morning in America thing. Like, you know, Reagan is not his politics are really not mine, but I absolutely see how like, you know, it's morning in America is a much better campaign message than like everything is awful and we're all going to die. So so Burnham is quite unusual for Labour leaders in that sense. he's very good with people, like even people who don't like his politics generally like him as a

person. Like I don't I don't know anyone with a bad word to say about him personally. I d I'm coming across I'm and this is a very weird thing for me. I suddenly find myself incredibly pro-Burnham. If you'd told me this would happen ten years ago, I would have been absolutely stunned by it. Because I always thought he was a bit of a mm shyster. He's a bit of a weather vane. Like he tells people what they want to hear. And I always found that a bit frustrating. Like the first kind of

Jonn (08:39.777)
came into contact with him when he was Secretary of State for Health at the tail end of the last government in like 2008, 2009, 2010. and one of the things he did was he signed off on privatizing a hospital. and then when he was shadow health secretary in opposition, his big campaign message was, I'm going to oppose NHS privatization. And it's like, and am I the only one who remembers this? Have we just he does he think we've just forgotten?

Dylan Ris (09:03.703)
Hm.

Jonn (09:09.525)
So like I was always a little bit cynical about him and you know I I wrote a column a few years ago saying I was cynical about him. and I went to his campaign launch as to be mayor of Greater Manchester in twenty seventeen and his sort of head of press came up to me afterwards and was like, John, we were so enjoying your tweets, your sarcastic tweets about everything. And he says you never say anything nice about him. Do you want to meet him? And just put me in front of him with no warning whatsoever.

Dylan Ris (09:30.497)
Ha ha.

Dylan Ris (09:38.273)
Mm. Mm.

Jonn (09:39.818)
for an interview. And, you know, firstly that's a that is a very good technique for handling potentially hostile press. And secondly, I was kind of, you know, I was just sort of impressed that he was like, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna try and talk this guy round. And that is very much his dyno I mean like what he did in Makerfield. Like he was literally like tr saying to his campaign manager, like, I want to speak to all the reform voters, put me in front of the people who don't like me.

Dylan Ris (09:53.951)
Mm-hmm.

Jonn (10:06.633)
And after the last couple of years where the Labour Party has just been in a defensive crouch the whole time, in a way that I'm sure will be familiar to many supporters of the Democratic Party, it is kind of refreshing to see someone who's like, No, I wanna go out there, I wanna make the case for progressive change, and I'm gonna do it to people who don't agree with me. Like someone who's like, you know, both like I wanna speak to the other side, but I'm not gonna be scared to say, here is what I believe.

so I'm actually feeling ugly optimistic about the guy.

Dylan Ris (10:35.659)
Yeah.

Dylan Ris (10:39.517)
And and you know, you've you've spoken about how Labour has failed to do that in the past. It does seem from afar that Labour has been served by the Tories on a silver platter, r remarkable political opportunities, which they seem to have continually squandered. You know, there seems massive buyers remorse on Brexit, and just that a lot of the Tory policies of of the past two decades have have not panned out.

Why has am I correct about that and and has Labor squandered it to the degree it seems?

Jonn (11:12.929)
Labour has absolutely squandered it, but I do think it was a more complicated inheritance than than it perhaps looks from afar. so firstly well let's do Brexit first. Brexit was obviously quite a narrow vote. It was kind of portrayed as overwhelming in a way that I think was actually a function of how close it was. Like I think if it had been sixty forty in favour of Brexit, I think it would have been easier for the winning side to be magnanimous about it.

But because it was 52, 48, it was, you know, clear, but not overwhelming. That kind of meant that everyone was firstly the remain side, on which I very much camp myself. I think Brexit was a stupid idea. The remain side, we convinced ourselves maybe this wasn't a done deal, maybe we can reverse this. And that meant the Leave side were very much, no, we need to kind of double down on this. We need to make clear that this is happening. So after the referendum, we had four more years of well, three and a half more years of fights about.

Dylan Ris (11:55.581)
Mm-hmm.

Jonn (12:12.563)
It. So so yeah, it was it was close, and the polling since then has become rather more convincing in favor of this was a terrible idea, why did we do this? But there are a couple of complicating factors, one of which is the geography of this country. So again, like although in terms of vote share, if if you think of like how the US Senate works.

Well like in terms in terms of vote share, like your country is not far off fifty fifty, maybe a bit more of a maybe even a democratic bias, right? But because of how the Senate works and the way that Wyoming gets the same number of senators as California, which by the way is fucking insane, but let's let's not dig into that right now. because because of that, there is sort of a republican advantage. There is an advantage to more rural states, right?

Dylan Ris (12:59.085)
Yes.

Jonn (13:06.781)
and there is a parallel with how Brexit has panned out over here, where even though it was fifty-two forty-eight, nearly fifty-fifty in terms of the vote share in the referendum, if you did it by the actual parliamentary seats, politics you know, professional pol you know politics professors worked out it was probably two to one in favour of Brexit. There were far more parliamentary constituencies that would vote Brexit than there were that would vote Remain. So

Dylan Ris (13:29.068)
Mm-hmm.

Jonn (13:35.842)
that immediately makes it quite difficult to kind of like i in a parliamentary system like there are just always going to be far more seats where the people representing them have a have a an instinct to go, well, we can't push too hard against this. And that's just because of the same demographic and political forces which you're certainly seeing in the US 'cause I've reported out there a little bit. Like there's a lot of like, you know, dip rust belt towns that in place you know, I've been to Youngstown, Ohio, for example.

It really reminded me of a lot of the north of England where it's places where like once upon a time it's blue-collar workers reliably voted for the left wing party, but the economy is gone, a lot of culture war has happened, now they're kind of on the other side. And you can see exactly how that's happened. It's basically like the young people turn eighteen, go off to college and never come back because there are no jobs. And that has an impact on on the makeup of these towns. We have a very similar thing. I think you're seeing that in a lot of the the developed world actually.

But that means that all the kind of progressive voters pile up in the big cities and the university towns. And I'm sure that's a picture that will be, you know, not unfamiliar from how things work in the US right now. We have yeah, we have our own version of that. And that means that just all the Romaine voters like I'm speaking to you from from the east end of London. It is incredibly romaine round here. Like it is very in you know, it's very demographically mixed, it is very international. i

Dylan Ris (14:45.077)
certainly, yeah.

Dylan Ris (14:56.108)
Mm-hmm.

Jonn (15:03.627)
That is not true of large chunks of the country geographically. So that's that's one reason. But and also just before I I I realise I'm just babbling at you really, but and before we leave Brexit behind entirely, it's not that simple as pressing a button and we go back in. Like there will have to be a complicated negotiation with twenty seven other countries. most of whom probably want us back in, but not necessarily all of whom, and all of whom do

Dylan Ris (15:20.109)
Mm-hmm.

Jonn (15:33.532)
would would want us to be back in under certain terms. Like they do not want to they do not want it to be up for debate again in ten years' time. there will be like you know France will want certain economic concessions probably. There will probably be pressure for us to accept the Euro. And all of these things, although there's probably strong support for going back into Europe in theory, all of these things could chip away at it in practice. Plus

Everyone's exhausted. We spent years talking about Brexit. We have many other problems. So even though it probably has knocked four or five percent off GDP and means that you know we now have to queue in an airport when we go the holiday in France, which is just embarrassing, quite frankly. yeah, despite all that, I do kind of see where like people talk about bre you know reversing Brexit as a 10, 20 year project. Nobody wants to prioritize it right now. The other way in which

Yeah, it's not as simple as saying, Well, like, you know, the Tories gave you an inheritance where everyone just wants to w wants to reverse everything they did. One of the things the Conservative Party did was austerity. It was spending less on public services and, you know, infrastructure and just it is very visible. You go around this country now, it is very visible that something is broken, nobody has any money, the economy is buggered. and it does just mean like

It is quite difficult to just turn the spending taps on in the way that the last Labour government in that came in in ninety seven, they were cautious about it at first, but n you know, just because they didn't want to kind of spook the markets or or the s conservative marginal vote at one over. But they're in a position within a couple of years to go, like, yeah, we're gonna start pouring more money into the health service. We're gonna start pouring more money into schools. The current government cannot do that because we literally do not have the money. we are

You know, we are now the poorest country in Western Europe, which was not true even fifteen years ago. so it is i even though like everyone would love to just kind of reverse the the the legacy of the Conservative government, but to do that it costs and we just don't have the cash right now. So that's kind of the note of pessimism around Andy Burnham, having like been quite positive about him.

Jonn (17:53.378)
The fear is that a lot of the things he wants to do are going to cost money and it's not clear where that money comes from. And also, like, we need we need to spend more on defence because a country that I'm not gonna be rude enough to name is kind of threatening to pull out of NATO and Europe has to sort of worry about Russia on its own these days. So we all have to spend more money on that as well. So, you know, it's

Dylan Ris (17:59.97)
And we'll

Dylan Ris (18:05.997)
Mm-hmm.

What could that be? Yes.

Dylan Ris (18:15.329)
Will will the will the British public and the British press give Burnham and his government the the leeway to do this? I I think of when Joe Biden took over for Donald Trump and almost immediately within months it's like, well, you know, Trump might have done this, but it's been three months and Biden hasn't reversed that, you know, s certainly with the COVID crisis and other things. Could could the same be happening in the UK or there is there a little more patience?

Jonn (18:43.305)
I mean the press is if anything even more right wing than yours. I mean a a good rule of thumb is that because of different regulatory environments, our T V has historically been much more balanced than yours, although we now have this thing called G B News that for some reason the regulator doesn't want to touch, even though it's clearly breaking a lot of rules. Like Nigel Farage is a presenter on G B News. That is insane.

Dylan Ris (18:48.695)
Sure.

Dylan Ris (19:08.83)
Ha ha.

Jonn (19:10.775)
But like but historically our TV was much more balanced, our print media was far more unhinged than yours, and very much biased to the right. Like, not universally. The most of the most of the magazines I write for are on the liberal left, but there is a fairly strong right wing bias in our press. Like there are far more right wing titles than left wing ones. so the press is absolutely not going to give him, not going to cut him any slack.

And we're we're already seeing this. I mean, like the the Daily Mail's headline this morning, yesterday morning, which I can't remember, was like, So how we get who's going to pay for this, Andy, or something? About ending rough sleeping. About like the first thing is that you know, it is appalling there are people visibly sleep visibly homeless on our streets. I think we should do something about that. It's, you know, a significant quantity of money, but it's not an insane quantity of money. And we have newspapers going, Well, that's a ridiculous thing to spend money on.

Immediately. So so the press is not going to have any patience whatsoever. I think and I I have more faith in Burnham being willing to ignore that and some of his top team, like Ed Ed Miliband, who was Labour leader some years ago, is now he's got a pretty thick skin because he was Labour leader many years ago, so they've kind of thrown everything at him that they can. so I

Hopefully they will sort of ignore the noises off and just do what they think is right. The public, I i it could go either way. I think there will probably be a little bit of patience if there are enough changes happening quickly. Like there have been a couple of policies announced very quickly that are designed to make people aware that there is a new guy at the top and they are trying to do something. There have been a couple of things, cost of living policies like bus fares have been capped.

they're taking some v tax off energy bills. All these things are quite small, but they're will hope they will hopefully be visible when you sort of hope these things buy the time to do other things. But we'll see. I mean, like one of the things about the economy having been our economy has not really grown in you know, since the crash to any great extent. And that's going on twenty years now.

Jonn (21:29.108)
And one of the things about an economy that isn't growing is it makes it harder to re do re to do redistributive policies because for there to be a winner there also has to be a loser. so we there there is a moment of optimism, but they don't know how long it lasts.

Dylan Ris (21:47.098)
it seems to me that that some of the slack that that labor might get hinges on the public's faith that government can be competent and administer these policies. In the US, we don't have that. And you mentioned Reagan earlier. I mean, Reagan's legacy, which extends today, incredibly consequential, where he, you know, his his famous quote was the scariest words in the English language are I'm I'm from the government and I'm here to help. and

Since that time, even in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary, people have just believed that the government is gonna screw things up to the point where when we've had hurricanes here, they've rejected government assistance from FEMA because they think they're gonna make it worse. In fact, it's not the case. In the UK, it does seem that people have, you know, because of NHS, because of of you know, other other redistributive programs, people have more.

faith in government, but is that still the case? do people believe that a Labour government can be competent?

Jonn (22:49.643)
we'll see. I mean, we do have a very different political culture to you, in that we don't have the sort of strongly anti government thing that is it's there from the beginning in the US, right? This is this is what Jeffersonianism is, right? You know, like the it is it is one of the two strong forces in the early years of the republic. we don't have that in the same way. We have parties that broadly favour a bigger government and parties that broadly favour a smaller government, but we don't have the

Dylan Ris (23:01.588)
yeah.

Yeah.

Jonn (23:19.543)
the s I mean even like that our our sort of relatively hard right are are are are not as anti government as like some of the guys you've got in like I know rural rural Idaho or something who kind of like you know who who just don't ever want to see the government at all. Like we we we yeah. Exactly. Yeah we don't we don't have that culture. but there is, you know, of the but there are still you know the the you know Margaret Thatcher

Dylan Ris (23:31.841)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dylan Ris (23:36.63)
No. And you'll shoot them if they show up, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jonn (23:48.056)
wanted to decrease the size of the government. The last Conservative government, I mean austerity was fundamentally a pro a a programme of shrinking the size of the state. That's what it was for. and I do think there are ways in which you you can sometimes see good arguments for the government doing less. I I I you know if you go back to the mid-20th century, like there were all sorts of things that all sorts of publicly owned industries that from a modern perspective kind of look crazy. The idea that like

you know, car makers were publicly owned. That feels a bit odd. I don't think we're gonna go back to that. So like sometimes I do think i I I I I don't always think that like, you know, it is insane to say, well, the government should get should clear some space for business over here or whatever. But we do still have a fairly strong anti government tradition. It's just not as strong as yours. but, you know, while I think the big mistake that the the

The Keir Starmer regime, the the Labour Prime Minister and administration that have just gone after two years made. It's just being in a defensive crouch the whole time. Being so apologetic about being from the fucking Labour Party. It's like people elected you on a manifesto that had one word on the cover and the word was change. Why are you so scared to look like you're going to change anything?

Dylan Ris (25:10.495)
Is there anywhere in England that outside of London and the largest cities where maybe the culture is drifting toward the left? You mentioned how that you know the north is sort of you know, a a rust belt of sorts. You know, but in again in the US we do have areas, including in the south where people move for jobs. The state of North Carolina, a lot of people were told by their companies, you're moving to Charlotte because we're re re you know, we're reorganizing there. And actually that's pushed that state's politics somewhat.

To the left. Is there anything like that outside of your, you know, London's, Birmingham's, Manchester's?

Jonn (25:48.18)
yeah, I mean so the red wall that people refer to it as meaning the the sort of the the seats in they generally mean the north of England, but it's also large chunks of the Midlands are industrial as well, South Wales historically s the central Belsh of Scotland, but Scotland's got a whole different politics now 'cause of the SNP. But the these were all the kind of it's the the the industrial towns were the Labour heartlands for a long time. For most of the twentieth century.

Dylan Ris (26:00.406)
Yeah.

Dylan Ris (26:09.421)
Sure.

Jonn (26:18.071)
Places that had mines or factories were where Labour got elected. and commuter suburbs were where the Conservatives got elected, rural areas. You know, that that was kind of a split. and we've had a realignment the last few years that have seen the Red Wall, because it is culturally more conservative because a lot of the young people leave to the big cities and so on.

has has sort of gradually sort of and and because it was quite Brexit, because it was quite levy in a lot of those seats, like voting for Brexit was a sort of gateway drug to voting for more right-wing parties. So we've talked more about that side of the realignment. But there is there is a a sort of mirror effect of that where we are seeing, you know, a lot of places we now think of as fairly solid Labour seats, you know, University Towns, Oxford, Cambridge, Brighton, Bristol, all these places were once

More likely to be conservative. And we sort of accepted them as like, well, now they're probably Labour. And that's a relatively recent thing. We are seeing a lot of commuter towns in the southeast of England, or you know, coastal, you know, relatively nice coastal towns, because people have been forced out of London big by house prices, but they've not gone to these places and all started voting Tory. So a lot of those places are starting to go to the left. Also, it gets more complicated because we don't just have a two party system anymore.

Dylan Ris (27:42.968)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jonn (27:43.528)
so so there is also a thing called the Blue Wall, which we've heard less about, but that's a lot of very affluent but historically quite pro European seats in in the counties around London, in places like Surrey and Kent, that they're full of bankers basically. those have stopped voting conservative in a way that should really be freaking the party out, in a way they are not panicking like they should. those were largely won by

Dylan Ris (27:59.8)
Mm-hmm.

Jonn (28:12.043)
A party called the Liberal Democrats, who don't don't let the name confuse you. They're actually our sort of centrist party. they are taking a lot of those seats because people in those places like they like low tax, they don't like giving all their money to the government, but they're not racist and they don't want people to think they're racist. They probably quite like holidaying in the south of France and are a bit annoyed that they have to queue at the airport and so on.

So like, you know, the Conservatives have lost a whole bunch of seats. So like it's i i it is just a more complicated picture. But because of the media bias which I've already talked about, and because like the right wing newspapers are much better at getting like an echo chamber effect, then then like we hear far more about the Labour Party's problems than the ones facing the parties of the right.

Dylan Ris (29:05.013)
Mm. So, you know, unveiling your crystal ball, where do you w how do you when when Burnham himself has to stand for election as prime minister, how would you predict what when do you predict that election being called and and and putting you on the spot, how will it go?

Jonn (29:24.957)
so the last possible date for it will be around three years' time. It'll be slightly after like the maximum length of a term is five years plus a couple of weeks, I think, so the dissolution of parliament. So it'll probably be around around this time in 2029. it is possible Burnham goes to the country early because he wants his own mandate. however, that's risky. The polls the last couple of days have looked better.

and reform Nigel Farage's reform party that is kind of the the biggest threat right now is having a bad time. that's a whole different story though. but like it is possible that he wants to go to the country early, but it is very unlikely if he does that that he won't lose seats because Labour did win quite a big majority two years ago. So like even if it goes really well, he will probably go from like a 160 seat majority to an eighty seat.

Majority. And that's kind of a crazy thing to do. So I think probably he waits three years. what happens then? I mean, three years is a long time. We could be at war with some might say we are at war with Russia, but we could be openly at war with Russia by then. By the time the next British election has to be called, Donald Trump should be out of the White House. It is extremely difficult to predict what it looks like. and I think it'll it'll fundamentally be a race between

Pete the the quite strong anti reform feeling that that will make a lot of people f hold their nose and vote Labour even if they don't think they want to right now. against that. It's like, well, the economy isn't doing very well, the Strait of Hormuz is still closed, that increase in energy prices hasn't really fed into the state of the economy yet. who knows? It's kind of gonna be a race between it'll all come down to the economy, basically.

and how how mad geopolitics is at the at that point. it is entirely possible that Labour holds on or that it ends up in in coalition with the Lib Dems, but I wouldn't bet against them losing. So that's not really an answer, but that's it's honest, you know.

Dylan Ris (31:40.334)
Well, yeah, it's it's it it's honest, exactly, in the wide range there. Well, we'd love to have you back, and you've you said you would, so we'll we'll have you back, and we want to talk about our our our friend Mr. Farage and what how he might meddle in all this. but before we go on this episode, John, what what what should we be reading of yours? Do you have any any publications we might want to know about?

Jonn (32:01.985)
Well, I'm I'm very, very glad you asked. I d I have one of those Substack newsletter things, which is kind of just the a weekly dump of the contents of my brain. So there's a bit of British politics, but there'll also be history or geography or I'm a transport nerd, that pops up quite a lot, or just whatever I'm interested in this week. but I also I have a number of books out in the in the US. The the most successful one is

called A Brief History of the World in Forty Seven Borders. but my my lovely publisher's The Experiment also brought out the back catalogue. So there's a I should really know the name of what they retitled the books, and I can't remember. One of them's now called Ellig's non-trivial trivia, which is a bit like the newsletter, it's all sorts of stuff. There's also a book on conspiracy theories, written by my friend Tom Phillips, and I really can't remember what they're called it, I don't know, which is a problem.

but that's out. And I have a new one out in the autumn, which is the one I'm meant to be promoting. which is in Britain gonna be thirty one inventions that built our world. The American edition, because America is bigger, is thirty two inventions that built the city, I think. It is a history of of the city, basically. Y you you guys get an extra chapter because one of the ones we cut was about the LA streetcar conspiracy, and that's obviously a a very American story, so my editor asked me to put it back in.

Dylan Ris (33:14.038)
Well.

Dylan Ris (33:30.187)
That's wonderful. Well, as as a resident of LA, I'll go right to that chapter. and your your substack address is is what's the URL?

Jonn (33:38.747)
it's it's John J O D N because I'm pretentious John dot substack dot com. And it's called the newsletter of not quite everything.

Dylan Ris (33:45.675)
Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, thank you, John. we look forward to having you back and we have appreciated a little bit of our ignorance being chiseled away on today's episode of Personality Crisis. Thank you. It's an honor.

Jonn (34:00.471)
Thank you very much for having me. It's good to talk to you.